What happens when well-spoken and otherwise smart raiders get all worked up over S3 gear? You get armchair designers devising ways to fix arena loot distribution from the perspective of sour, disgruntled raiders with a barely hidden agenda of denying other people loot they didn’t catass for through BT.
Never mind that raiders get a disproportionate amount of development time spent on churning out new content they gobble up, or that they get access to the top of the top gear 4-5 months before arena. Never mind that currently competitive PvPers still have to run PvE content to get part of their kit. People who aren’t even participating in arena, and by their own account are a dying breed don’t want you to earn S3 gear. They will throw the tired old “lose 10 games a week” tirade like it were meaningful in any way, then come up with a theorycrafted model of gear progression for arena, a game they don’t participate in any relevant manner (if at all), and explain to you that competitive arena should now go through such and such ratings before they can upgrade their gear, trying to force the broken loot distribution system of their activity of choice, raiding, upon PvP.
Well, like they’ve always told the non-raiders, if you don’t raid or aren’t level 70 you can’t have a meaningful point of view on the matter. Let’s turn this around, then.
Are you a raider with some great ideas how to “fix” PvP gear distribution? Give us the highest rating you have achieved, together with season and bracket this happened in. If you believe S3 gear should require a rating of 1750+, show us that you have reached that rating yourself and that you actually are a stakeholder and know from personal experience what it takes to get there. Obviously buying a spot in a top rated team doesn’t count.
If you can’t do that, you aren’t a stakeholder, and, no disrespect meant, you have neither the experience nor the mindset to talk about PvP loot distribution “fixing” with any kind of credibility, no matter how good your PvE opinions are. In fact, you perfectly fit the stereotype stating that the only people who get worked up over arena gear are raiders with lousy arena ratings (or even none). Just suck it up and turn your creative energies into suggestion to make raiding an interesting proposition again.
On Similar Matters
Tags: Arena, loot, Musings, RaidingYou can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.
Comments
8 Responses to “Enough with the Armchair Arena fixes. Disclose your Rating first.”
Leave a Reply
Wow … I agree with your PoV 100% (and didn’t even know that I did until reading it). The thing that really irritates me is the disproportionate amount of time spent on developing new content for top tier raiders (BT, Sunwell) when we’ve been playing the same tired, horrible BGs for how long? Fact is, if raiders aren’t raiding for the JOY of raiding - out of a sense of accomplishment - then they shouldn’t be doing it. And this sense of accomplishment shouldn’t be made less by the fact that there is roughly equivalent gear available through Arena unless the true, unstated motivation is to simply have the most epix to lord over other players.
Alright, here’s my disclosure. My Priest has always been my main PvE character, but my Shaman’s been the one I envisioned in PvP (and good lord is that hard to master or what!).
The highest fives I hit last season was ~1650.
The highest twos was ~1940 (Having fun with a rogue friend).
Threes was a crapshoot because I’d just ring for teams that were running a War/Pal/Sham endurance team and those ranged from 1450 - 1700.
Currently in S3, my most active team is a 3s sitting at ~1530 due to our .500 win ratio =(.
Personally, this whole welfare epics thing doesn’t bother me at all. I’m a casual PvPer. I love to have fun in a casual competitive environment. I don’t have a problem acquiring PvE gear that I need. But that doesn’t mean I’m not going to spend a few rounds in arena ringing for a few of my friends if they need a decked healer. I don’t even have a clue where to begin to start on how to fix an issue like this. But, you did call for full disclosure and there you have it =).
I have no arena rating above a 1500.
However, that really doesn’t mean anything if you actually understand the reason behind it.
I PVP a lot in my spare time, but it’s mostly in BG’s, as that can be done solo and doesn’t require snagging two or three people into getting into a closed Arena match.
And my partners do not PVP very much at all nor are they specc’d for PVP. Neither am I. We also only play 10 games a week. On one team.
So yes, I understand the work it takes to get to 1750. I’d love to get there, but it takes work. However, I also imagine it would be much easier if all I did was PVP with a PVP spec, just as raiding is a lot easier if one tries a good PVE spec for it.
The problem with the whole “Your rating sucks, you don’t know what you’re talking about” argument/standard is that its legitimate sphere on the discussion is much smaller than people believe it to be. Ignorance or stupidity is not an effective shield once used. In most cases the quality of one’s gear is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
The reason so many people in the WoW forums post on alts these days is because people with their own axes to grind will, instead of actually trying to defend their positions, simply head over to the armory and turn the discussion into something about gear. Even that defensive move gets put on someone’s head as saying “Oh, you don’t know anything. You’re just an alt,” even though he might be a level 70 that has played the game since beta. Either way, the poster cannot win, and actual logical discussion is thrown to the wind.
I myself have no problem with S3’s gear, nor did I care about the new rating requirements on the weapons and shoulders. However, considering that we’ve discovered that rating buying is something both PVE’ers AND PVP’ers are quite guilty of, do you think that some sort of bar on Arena goods was not needed? You do have to admit that the amount of time necessary to get Arena gear cannot compare to that of raiding.
By the way, the whole “lose 10 games a week” mentality sickens me among PVE’ers, especially among my partners. I want to WIN, not sit here in pain being rolled over and losing 10 games a week because my partners aren’t paying attention.
I think I’ll write a post on this on Apathy Inc. sometime today. It’s a good topic that needs discussing.
The only reason behind that request is that nowadays, there’s just too many people believing “arena has to be fixed” and coming up with more and more ludicrous solutions. It is not about the kind of e-peen-ad-hominem the o-boards are so fond of, it’s about uncovering whether the “fixers” are actually a stakeholder.
You don’t need to have a 1750 rating to post valid commentary about the arena, but if you have no arena experience at all, or are sitting at 1200 because you are a PvEr who has the lose 10 games mentality, you simply have no notion whether 1750 is easy or hard to obtain.
In the six sigma business practice improvement methodology, at least at the first stage, you aren’t allowed to work on improving processes which you and your workgroup aren’t participating in, you have to be a stakeholder. In this particuliar case, only a small subset of rabid raiders actually have an issue with arena loot distribution, and they don’t arena at all. Which makes them about as unqualified to propose rating limitations for instance as I am in a position to explain how the Illidan encounter should be tweaked.
The problem with limiting discussion to those in the “stakeholder” group is this: all you get is selfish opinions constantly. Stakeholders generally do not care about anybody or anything outside their group. This is the case in PVP and PVE. We’ve PVE’ers hating the PVP’ers and vice-versa, and apparently no one is allowed to comment on the other unless they are “qualified.” Only that standard of qualification is “determined” by those being attacked, and they are not going to let anybody question their opinions. So they simply turn to things like gear or time spent raiding to shoot down a person’s argument.
Everybody thinks they are the most important aspect of WoW. Solo’ers, PVP’ers, Arena’ers, PVE’ers, Raiders, the works. By limiting everything to only those “qualified” to speak on things, you’ll only increase bickering and bias. Humans are selfish.
In addition, if you actually take this standard to its logical conclusion, absolutely none of us here are qualified to talk about how to fix things. We don’t work at Blizzard, we’ve none of the knowledge they do, we don’t know how much time, effort, energy, and cost it takes to develop things, etc. So why do we think we have the right to suggest how to fix things on anything?
“But we’re the customers! We’ve a right to speak on everything! We’re always right!” I can’t believe how many people actually believe this mentality in their daily lives.
A casual PVE’er that has experience in the MMORPG business and knows how things work in games is far more qualified to speak on any WoW issue presented to him, though he have blues and greens and a 1200 arena rating.
All the Arena ratings and Boss loot you have only show one thing (assuming you got them honorably): you know how to play the game well. It does not mean for a second that you know anything about the game’s problems or the best method of fixing them.
The point is this discussion shouldn’t be about gear or how much time you spend raiding or farming or theorycrafting or what not. If a person is truly unqualified to talk about these things, it will show in their easily flattened arguments. Make the discussion about discussion and ideas, not whether a person has Full S3 or Full Tier 6.
All valid points, but while I see plenty of raiders coming up with oh-so-convolted ideas to lock S3 gear behind “easy to get” ratings (actually nothing but thinly veiled nerf calls when it comes down to it) I don’t see too many PvPers proposing similar fixes to Tier 6 raiding.
As for the right to suggest things? It doesn’t exist, it’s a privilege granted to us by Blizzard, which we should value (but, as a collective, abuse). I believe we both have pretty similar views on this matter, expressed by you on your famous Why Blizzard Hates You and me on my a lot less famous Why Nerf Calling is Wrong.
And for that matter, my troll here is fulfilling its purpose. Raider or PvPer, regardless of rating, those who have given a serious shot at arena for the competition’s sake do have a measure what a 1750 or 1850 rating really means. That’s also why you will get another group of raiders, mostly from specific DPS classes, rooting against the S3 weapon rating barrier because they know fully well it places the weapons out of their reach, weapons they’d want because due poor PvE itemization and / or bad drop luck they represent the best stuff available to them. Conversely, people dismissing 1750 or 1850 as trivial to get all cop out immediately afterwards and provide you with tons of reasons why you actually wouldn’t be able to find any trace of arena ratings on their toons. Or, like Rohan, simply haven’t set a foot into arena at all.
PVP’ers don’t propose locking T6 behind barriers because such barriers already exist, visible to all. In order for you to get T6, you must get through the T5 instances. There’s no way around it.
PVE’ers, on the other hand, see Arena as lacking such a tier system that requires one to get better and better, and so people can simply “lose 10 games a week” to get really nice gear. This argument was practically invincible until S3 rolled around. PVE’ers could, with some degree of confidence and self-righteousness, poke at Arena for being an easy outlet, and as such could vent their anger/envy/arrogance towards PVP’ers freely. Now that that outlet is being closed and that argument destroyed, PVE’ers are ironically angry. For sadly human reasons.
(In addition, PVP’ers do have to admit that some classes have it a lot better than others, and it is much easier to get to 1750 for a rogue than, say, a Shadow Priest.)
Although a tier system in Arena does exist, it is unspoken and unseen, and is nowhere near as visible and somewhat overwhelming as the PVE tiers. Furthermore, these tiers can (or could) be easily circumvented by rating-buying, whereas PVE tier-hopping can really only be accomplished by buying or changing accounts.
Whatever legitimate complaints PVE’ers had about Arena and the like should be eliminated now that the Team and Personal ratings have to be in line to buy coveted gear. I would hope this fighting between the two groups would cease or at least diminish, but that’s like asking the sun to stop shining. *sighs*